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Cantata BWV 78
Jesu, der du meine Seele
Discussions - Part 2 |
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Continue from Part 1 |
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Question |
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Jan de Rooij wrote (June 26, 2002):
Just a simple question for you all, but difficult for me as a novice in listening cantata's:
I have heard the beautyfull duet 'Wir eilen mit schwach..' from cantate BWV 78 in another piece of music anywhere else but i can't remember where. Is this duet taken from another work of Bach?
By the way: it was Leusink [20] who triggered our family into listening cantatas. Oft mentioned in this forum as poor performing but giving many people the chance to listen to Bach's wonderful works! |
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Excerpt from cantata BWV 78. Who is this tenor? |
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Rene Pannekoek wrote (January 18, 2003):
I am a new member of the Bach Cantatas mailing list. I've been enjoying your discussions and reviews via www.bach-cantatas.com for quite some time. Great job! Before embarking on that site, I never really knew there were so much recordings of the cantatas. It's a whole universe in itself; and even as I'm only beginning to explore its near and distant stars and galaxies, it's a thrill to do so.
Some time ago I somehow came into possession of an mp3-file with music from the BWV 78 ("Jesu, der du meine Seele"). I don't know who sings it, but I like it very very much - even though the sound quality is quite poor. My question to you, connaisseurs, is: can you identify the tenor who sings the aria in the mp3-file? I would love to hear more of his recordings. He sings it with so many nuances and so much 'soul'; I was immediately captivated by it. This is the link:
http://www.geocities.com/upturnpikepointandplace/BWV78.mp3
The only complete BWV 78 recording I own and have heard is that of Rifkin. I like it, but compared with the approach of the anonymous conductor of the mp3-file, it lacks weight.
Thank you in advance! |
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Neil Halliday wrote (January 18, 2003):
[To Rene Pannekoek] This tenor excerpt is good, isn't it!
I listened to an mp3 of Richter with van Kesteren at the website dovesong.com; the LP sample there is scratchy and in mono, and both the recording and orchestral performance are inferior to that provided by your link, which is in stereo. (Van Kesteren is good in the sample with Richter, however).
I hope someone can identify it. |
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Jane Newble wrote (January 18, 2003):
< Neil Halliday wrote:
< I hope someone can identify it. >
So do I. I am listening to it right now, and he has a beautiful voice. Thank you, Rene, for providing the link. |
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Ivan Lalis wrote (January 19, 2003):
[To Rene Pannekoek] He's wunderlich, isn't he? And I'd say he's Fritz Wunderlich :-), but I am really not sure about it. But the timbre, the colour, the way he sings particular moments all remind me of him. |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (January 20, 2003):
[To Ivan Lalis] My best guess would be Peter Schreier, but I can't be certain. |
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Rodrigo Maffei Libonati wrote (January 20, 2003):
My guess is Anton Dermota. :-) [3] |
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Ivan Lalis wrote (January 20, 2003):
Despite what I wrote I think we can cross Wunderlich. I listened to the excerpt with my headphones and IMO it is not him. |
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Rene Pannekoek wrote (January 20, 2003):
[To Ivan Lalis] Thank you all very much for listening to the sound file! Unfortunately I don't know Fritz Wunderlich. Your suggestion that it might have been him singing 'Das Blut', immediately makes me want to hear a recording with him on it. :)
Secondly, I agree, the Unknown Tenor shares certain characteristics with Peter Schreier. But the way I know Peter Schreier, his voice is sharper, more nasal than that on the mp3. Or maybe that's because of the distortion due to the mp3 encoding?
Thirdly, could it be Krebs [5]? It's a long shot but somewhere on the bach-cantatas.com I saw his voice being described as 'slightly nasal' and at least that seems just about right.
Many thanks so far! |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (January 20, 2003):
Could it be James Taylor? This morning I listened to him singing a Schemeli lied from the "Book of Chorale-Settings Advent-Christmas" from the Rilling cpte works-he sounded nasal as well, with a similar amount of vibrato. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (January 20, 2003):
[To Rene Pannekoek] Thanks for your kind words regarding the Bach Cantatas Website.
Free at last from my commitment to send the review of Cantata BWV 11, I could turn my attention to listening to the recordings of BWV 78 at my disposal, trying to find the 'mysterious' singer of your recording. The complete list of the recordings of this cantata can be found at the page: Cantata BWV 78 - Recordings
I do not have them all. I listened only to the traditional recordings, eliminating the HIP-ers from my listening list because the recording you presented does definitely not fall into this category. Here are the results:
[1] Gert Lutze with Ramin - NO
[3] Anton Dermota with Prohaska - NO
[4] John van Kesteren with Richter - NO
[7] Peter Schreier with Maursberger - NO
[8] Peter Menzel with Rotzsch - NO
[9] John Elwes with Corboz - NO
[11] Aldo Baldin with Rilling - NO
Disappointing results, isn't it? If this is neither of the above singers, who could it be? I have suspected even before listening to all the recordings that the tenor is probably the fine Theo Altmeyer (with Gönnenwein) [6]. But I do not have this recording. What could I do? I listened to some recordings with Altmeyer, trying to compare the timbre of voice, the way he varied his voice, his attacks, etc. What a splendid singer he was! I listened to his recording of the aria from Cantata BWV 148 under the same conductor, which was recorded about the same time. I am still not sure, although the 'anonymous singer sounds very much like him. Maybe one of the 329 members of the BCML has the recording of BWV 78 with Gönnenwein, and he can clarify the picture for us. If you think of Krebs [5], the go to guy is Roland Wörner (also a member of the BCML). He has all Fritz Werner's recordings.
Curious as you are, |
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Robert Killigsworth wrote (January 21, 2003):
< Aryeh Oron wrote:
< Maybe one of the 329 members of the BCML has the recording of BWV 78 with Gonnenwein, and he can clarify the picture for us. >
I have that recording on LP. When I get a moment to spare, I'll rerecord the tenor aria to MP3. Is there a Files section of this list where I could post it? I wouldn't necessarily trust myself to make the identification. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (January 21, 2003):
[To Robert Killigsworth] Please send it to my personal e-mail address. I shall a find a place for it at the Bach Cantatas Website. |
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Roland Wörner wrote (January 21, 2003):
IMO Anton Dermota is singing the aria from BWV 78. I listened several times to it, searching a a familiar voice in my mind. It is no one of the famous and familiar oratorio tenors. Altmeyer and Krebs, which I have both in BWV 78 recordings (Gönnenwein / Werner), are not eligible at all. My impression was: Anton Dermota or Josef Traxel. Then I compared the aria to Dermotas's Johannes in Franz Schmidt "Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln", a live recording from Dec. 1974, his Don Ottavio in Don Giovanni (Furtwängler, Salzburg 1954 / Krips, Decca, 1955 - pooh, the perfect crime: an operatic singer!). OK, there is a difference of 20 years (in the Schmidt) but I think it is the same voice - in spite of Aryeh's opinion, that it is not Dermota. For him and his recording from 1954 (which I don't have) stands, that it is IMO a mono recording. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (January 22, 2003):
[To Roland Wörner] So I gave it anotshot, and the singer is definitely not Dermota, at least not in the recording with Prohsaka. I asked my wife to join me in the listening comparison. We heard the anonymous singer first, and couple of seconds after the entry of Dermota, she said, "These are completely different singers!".
The singer does not sound to me as Haefliger, who has another colour of voice and different approach and phrasing, but he is the only singer from the old school left uncovered in our joint search. Unfortunately, I do not have his recording of the cantata with Rolf Reinhardt at my disposal. Is it possible that the recording was taken from an archive of a radio station, which has never been issued on LP or CD? I know that there are many treasures of recorded cantatas in the archives of German radio stations from the 1950's and 1960's. |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (January 22, 2003):
[To Aryeh Oron] Apologies for forgetting your name, but could the person who put up the original link that contains the mp3 file please post it on the list again? I want to compare the voice to the Karajan recording I have of Mozart's Requiem, with Dermota singing the solo tenor. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (January 22, 2003):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] I am not the original questioner, but for the convenience of the members, I put the music example at the following page of the Bach Cantatas Website: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/BWV78-Mus.htm
More about the idea behind this newly added page will come later... |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (January 22, 2003):
[To Aryeh Oron] Thanks Aryeh for the link.
As well, I have to agree that the "mystery tenor" is not Dermota (I checked just for a second opinion-no insult to Aryeh's intelligence/abilities, etc. intended). I can somewhat understand why it might have been thought of as Dermota, but the clincher for me is the higher range. This tenor sounds like he's using his throat, causing the tone that led me to think that he was Schrier, although Schrier makes this throat-like tone much more often than on just high notes. Dermota in the Mozart (I listened to an excerpt from Tuba Mirum) on the other hand, tends to sound a bit strainy, much like Pavarotti and those Italians-just not as forcefully. |
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Rene Pannekoek wrote (January 22, 2003):
Hello Aryeh, Roland, Matthew, and others. :)
I am following your discussion about the fragment with much interest and enjoyment. It's a shame I can't contribute to it. But it certainly has broadened my interest in the recordings of the Bach cantatas, as hitherto I've only listened to HIP-recordings. About a year ago, I listened to the Eugen Jochum-Saint Matthew Passion (BWV 244) at my friend's, but I didn't like it very much then. Apparently the 'romantic' approach needed some time to grow on me. Well, it has grown. Two weeks ago or so I bought vol. 5 of the Richter cantatas, and I am very much impressed indeed. Actually, I bought that set because I was convinced that my dearest Unknown Tenor was Peter Schreier. Although Schreier certainly hasn't disappointed me (I find his recitatives particularly great, the way he sings 'So stehe denn bei Christi blutgefärbte Fahne' from BWV 80 is just magnificent), it was immediately apparent to me that he couldn't be the tenor of the mp3-file. But... are there then still "better" tenors than Schreier? In any case, for me there's a hell of a lot left to discover. :)
Thanks and regards, |
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Rene Pannekoek wrote (January 22, 2003):
Also I would want to point out that in my mp3-file, instead of 'Das Blut etc', it is sung: 'Dein Blut etc'. Maybe that provides a clue? |
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Neil Halliday wrote (January 22, 2003):
[To Aryeh Oron] Would it be possible to have a 'live' link to the 2nd example on your list? |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (January 22, 2003):
[To Neil Halliday] Bob Killingsworth was very kind to send me the music example of Theo Altmeyer singing (with Gonnenwein) the same tenor aria from Cantata BWV 78. It is located at the same page. See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/index.htm
Definitely, Altmeyer is not the anonymous singer. Any other suggestions? |
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BWV 78 |
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Neil Halliday wrote (April 9, 2003):
Two quick points:
1.Opening chorus: notice Richter [4] plays the last note in each of the first 3 bars, and in the corresponding places throughout the movement, as a quaver, while Harnoncourt [10] plays it as a semi-quaver.
You can take your pick, but from a look at the score given at mymp3sonline.net (a piano reduction of the instrumental parts), it would appear Richter gives the correct reading. Nevertheless, I suppose one could argue that Harnoncourt's reading is within the bounds of artistic licence. (I prefer the gentler, yet stronger flow created by Richter's reading of the score.)
2.The final Chorale gives the extremes of fermata interpretation; Richter [4] holds the note, at the end of each sentence, for quite a while, thus adding interest, IMO, to the otherwise straightforward metre of the chorale as shown in Harnoncourt's reading [10]. |
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Hugo Saldias wrote (April 9, 2003):
[To Neil Halliday] GOOD POINTS |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (April 9, 2003):
BWV 78 (dotting)
Neil Halliday wrote:
< 1.Opening chorus: notice Richter [4] plays the last note in each of the first 3 bars, and in the corresponding places throughout the movement, as a quaver, while Harnoncourt [10] plays it as a semi-quaver.
You can take your pick, but from a look at the score given at mymp3sonline .net (a piano reduction of the instrumental parts), it would appear Richter [4] gives the correct reading. Nevertheless, I suppose one could argue that Harnoncourt's reading [10] is within the bounds of artistic licence. (I prefer the gentler, yet stronger flow created by Richter's reading of the score.) >
This is not mere "artistic licence" on the part of Harnoncourt [10]. It is a fundamental decision whether one should point the dotted figures (as he does), rendering them crisply, or whether one should play them exactly as notated (as Richter [4] does). One has to seek out the overall effect the composer was probably trying to convey, and then use that to decide how to render the dotted figures. Consideration of dance rhythms and meter can also come into play here: for example, this opening chorus suggests a Chaconne or a Sarabande according to its rhythmic profile.
'Overdotting', PRO: From treatises and examples presented by Quantz, CPE Bach, Marpurg, Leopold Mozart, Agricola, Loehlein, Falkener, Kirnberger, Schulz, Reichardt, Wolf, Petschke, Schlegel, Tuerk, Rellstab, Tromlitz, Bailleux.... The reasons given by these 18th century writers are that when played in this fashion, the music has greater "boldness, liveliness, majesty", sounds more "serious, fiery, proud," or gives better emphasis to the long notes (the more important notes), or helps to avoid rushing, or helps to avoid a "sleepy" sound. That is, in their opinion, the music makes a stronger effect when such dotted figured are sharpened. [That's from one of the summary charts in Hefling's book.]
'Overdotting', CON: A decision (like Frederick Neumann's) that all the above writers and/or reasons are irrelevant; or (perhaps) the performers were frankly unaware of that 18th century tradition, or have chosen deliberately to reject it....
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That is, depending on one's preferences or expectations, one could say equally that "it would appear Harnoncourt [10] gives the correct reading", and "Richter's reading [4] is within the bounds of artistic license"!
Just pointing that out. There's nothing wrong with preferring the way Richter plays it [4]; but don't automatically assume (from looking at a piano-reduction, and perhaps from having grown up with such a Richter sound in the ears) that it's what Bach expected. Nor should we automatically assume that the more pointed manner is what Bach expected, either. The point is (and perhaps there are too many points going around), it's not an automatic thing, and the score itself (on its own) doesn't necessarily tell us everything we need to know. Is that pointy enough for you?
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In the 17th and 18th centuries, the dotted figure "long, short-long, short-long short-long...." was just that, a figure to be recognized and rendered with some greater or lesser degree of pointiness, according to context and according to the desired effect. It was not a strict mathematical ratio of 3:1 or 7:1, the way we might expect from calculating the components of single-dotted or double-dotted notation on a page. It was a figure. Such a mathematical precision of rhythmic notation (exactly 3:1, or exactly anything!) is an expectation read back into it from the perspective of later music, from a more 'scientific' age!
A figure that looks like 3:1 on the page (such as a dotted quaver plus a semiquaver) might be performed more crisply than that (4:1, 5:1, ... 12:1, whatever); or it might be played more gently than that, like for example the final movement of Brandenburg Concerto #5...many believe that those dotted figures there should simply line up with the prevailing triplets, and therefore be played as 2:1 instead of 3:1.
There were also some of these--a grand mixture of triplets and dotted figures--in the bass aria of last week's cantata, BWV 68 movement 4! That's the movement where I said Fischer-Dieskau and Richter sounded too "pedantic" trying to preserve the strict differences as they saw on the page, and I praised Stämpfli and Ziegler for letting the music flow more easily than that.... |
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A BWV 78 duet critique; and tolerance |
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Neil Halliday wrote (September 7, 2003):
Notice this from Tom Braatz, at: Cantata BWV 78 - Discussions
"Mvt. 2: Here you have two very beautiful half-voices singing at a very appropriate tempo. These voices blend together very well. In measure 77 to 79 they are not really singing. Everything at this point is very sotto voce. This would never do in a large church, but with today's recording techniques you can turn up the volume and enjoy a non-operatic version where most of the notes (when you can hear them - there is too much careful tapping or touching of notes without singing them fully) are in tune and there is precision in attacking the notes as well as a great effort at ensemble playing and singing. I enjoy this version very much. The final "zu dir" is the best I have heard."
1. Clearly, this critique is not calculated to offend anyone.
2. I agree with Tom's estimation of this recording; it is more pleasing than the two examples of this duet available at: Cantata BWV 78 – Music Examples and also better than the Richter and Rilling recordings, IMO. (I will leave discussion of my reasoning for some other time.) I notice the other people who commented on this Rifkin/Baird/Fast example also rate it highly - an amazing convergence of views from people of differing tastes.
But note especially these words: "....two very beautiful half-voices...".
Something to ponder on? |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (September 7, 2003):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< Notice this from Tom Braatz, at: Cantata BWV 78 - Discussions
"Mvt. 2: Here you have two very beautiful half-voices singing at a very appropriate tempo. These voices blend together very well. In measure 77 to 79 they are not really singing.(...)
1. Clearly, this critique is not calculated to offend anyone. >
Oh, come now. How is the phrase "not really singing" inoffensive? And how is "two very beautiful half-voices" itself any better than saying "two very clever half-wits"?
Clearly, his critique is offensive, expressing vicious intolerance of a type of singing he just doesn't fancy. We can't be sure how deliberate and "calculated" he was about that, but the writing strongly suggests that he chose his words knowing they'd really piss off some of the readers. He said these are only half-competent singers who are not really singing. That's offensive. |
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Peter Bloemendaal wrote (September 7, 2003):
[To Bradley Lehman] I agree. I don't like vitriolic or sarcastic criticism on serious artists either because it shows lack of respect and negation of the artists' integrity. Yet, I think this kind of harsh criticism is allowed. It is quite common in reviews you read in music magazines or newspapers by music critics of some reputation. It is the use of abusive language against contributors on the list that should not be permitted as far as I am concerned. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (September 7, 2003):
[To Bradley Lehman] As you may be aware, I normally listen far more critically to the instruments than to the voices in the cantata recordings, so I played my tape of the Rifkin to see if I could understand any of what Tom was saying with "they are not really singing".
I must say, after an afternoon of listening to quite a few Rilling cantata recordings in succession, Baird and Fast really do sound quite ...small....in comparison - I have never really been aware of this before; what Tom says about the fineness of the instrumental ensemble, the blending of the voices, and yes, their beauty, which all combine to make this a memmorable recording, is all evident, but so is the 'smallness' of their voices in comparison to the type of voice I have been listening to today. Tom noted that this recording offers the chance to enjoy a duet of 'non-operatic' (minimal vibrato) character, and he suggests to just turn up the volume and enjoy. (I did not look at the score to see what was going on in bars 77-79, but no need, for the reasons noted above; and it is possible he has a hearing deficit of some kind for a certain frequency range - we all do to some extent, probably...).
Can you see where you may be drawing the wrong conclusions about deliberate malice on Tom's part? Isn't it similar to my 'complaint' about absolutely vibrato-less, bell-tone shaped, 'scratchy' period string tone, that I, for whatever reason, find so off-putting? I can assure you, I mean no offence to anyone. |
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[Many messages under this topic were omitted, because their content did not relate to Cantata BWV 78] |
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Gerard P. Luttikhuizen wrote (September 12, 2003):
I must confess that I do not read all the e-mail messages of this valuable discussion group, because of a momentary shortage of time. My choice is determined by the names of the senders (e.g. I never omit an e-mail of our webmaster) but also by the subject. I have a special predilection for BWV 78, first of all because of the quality of this work, of course the duet, the phantastic opening choir and the very moving bass recitative, but also because it was the first cantata I ever heard. I must have been 13 years old (50 years ago!). I still remember the sensation in the house of an uncle who happened to possess a record of this cantata. I cannot count the times I heard this music and I am interested in every piece of information about it. Can you imagine my surprise, my disappointment and my annoyance when I read a whole series of messages about other people's stubbornness and ignorance sent to me under the subject name of BWV 78? Will the participants be so kind as to continue this discussion under another title? Thanking you in advance, |
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Are these HIP characteristics? |
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Neil Halliday wrote (September 26, 2003):
Back in May, Hugo Saldias wrote, in response to an assertion on my part that Richter's organ part, in the 2nd movement of BWV 78, was too prominent:
"Dear Neil
1. The Richter version does not have a loud organ part. The organ NEVER covers the two ladies singing. This was a Leipzig tradition:to add an organ line with an independant melody. If yhear Kantor Mauersberger version you will note the same
improvisation
2. Rifkin has another focus that I like too..."
Today, I have received volume four of Richter's Archiv cantata set which contains BWV 78 (I purchased this set to supplement Rilling's overly energetic BWV 78 opening chorus and duet), and I feel impelled to say that indeed Hugo's observation is correct, and that my impression, based on a poor quality internet sample, was incorrect. The organ plays an independent and attractive treble part in the ritornellos, but the continuo appears to consist mostly of cello and bassoon, plus the pizzicato double bass; it is this continuo rendition that perhaps is a little 'plodding' or prominent; but overall this is a pleasing rendition from Richter, with soprano Ursula Buckel, and alto Hertha Toepper singing elegantly together. (1961! Yet this recording is excellent; the opening chorus is glorious, and the secco recitative rendition (movement #3) shows how it should be done - soft, yet clear organ registration holding legato chords, and a sensitive cello playing the notes as written).
It's in the following cantata BWV 17 that the criticism of a shrill and unnecessary organ part, playing in the vast opening chorus at the entry of the choir, can legitimately be made. I will be sticking with Rilling for this one. |
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BWV 78 Wir eilen |
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Jeff wrote (January 10, 2005):
Will anyone help me....I want to gather further information on authentic performance practice and performance instruments for the Wir Eilen duetto. I have the Kalmus edition but I just dont know. I want to be true to the music and would love any help you can give. |
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Doug Cowling wrote (January 10, 2005):
[To Jeff] This lovely duet from Cantata BWV 78, "Jesu Der Du Meine Seele", is such a staple of children's choirs now that it's rare to hear it with solo voices. It's scored for soprano and alto with obbligato cello as well as continuo bass. Much enjoyment can be had realizing the keyboard with thematic material from the vocal part. There is a hideous "tradition" that the "zu dir" ("to you") should be isolated an sung at half speed. |
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Emily L. Freguson wrote (January 10, 2005):
If all you have is Kalmus I'd suggest you try getting a scholarly edition. At least that way you'd have the best possible source for your performance. Try interlibrary loan at your local library or go to a big city library and look for the Neues Bach Gesellschaft.
Listening to some recordings by Koopman or Suzuki might be a good way to get an overview of how it should sound. Avoid Rilling and Harnoncourt. The former is too modern and the latter too mannered, in my opinion.
Bradley Lehman wrote (January 10, 2005):
[To Emily L. Ferguson] Or Carus-Verlag, Stuttgart: http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=KKWerk&WerkID=3492
I've performed some of the other cantatas from the Carus ed...good clean scholarly performing edition, reliable, thoughtfully placed page turns. :) |
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BWV 78; prohaska, stich-randall available again |
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JB wrote (July 29, 2005):
For those who love this cantata and the famous duet, part of which you can listen to at link below, it seems the Vanguard Prohaska recording of it is again available in CD after a long period out of print. i've just ordered it from amazon. here's a link to it: Amazon.com
apologies if already mentioned. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (July 30, 2005):
JB wrote :
< Amazon.com >
This is certainly an attractive version of the BWV 78 duet: bright organ ritornello, gorgeous singing with well-controlled vibratos and a sensible tempo (interestingly, there is less vocal wobble in this 60's recording than with, for example, Suzuki's two singers in the BWV 167 duet, discussed this week).
The only minor criticism I would make is the failure to bring out the separateness of the cello and double bass parts (the latter moves in crotchets, if I remember rightly - a lovely feature in Rifkin's recording, again if I remember rightly.)
In other movements: the Vienna Choir has too much vibrato, as usual for performances of this vintage, and the accompaniment in the secco recitative is not very effective. Otherwise, this sounds like a recording worth having. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (July 30, 2005):
[To JB & Neil Halliday] The complete duet from this recording (together with other music examples) can be found at the page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/Play-Passion[JFA]-Mus.htm
which comes with the article 'Bach and the Play of Passion' by Professor Jonathan Freeman Attwood. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (July 31, 2005):
[To Aryeh Oron] <>
BTW, thanks for directing us to the 'Articles' section of the BCW, with its bright and lovely recording of the Prohaska BWV 78 duet, as a music example in Professor Attwood's thought-provoking article. |
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Wir eilen auf Französisch |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 9, 2006):
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachRecordings/files/
I uploaded Wir eilen from BWV 78 with Germaine Cernay and Marthe Angelich [M-1]. Cernay lived 1900-1943 and I do not know the date of this recording. She was famed as a Bach recitalist. There is also a recording from BWV 4. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 9, 2006):
[M-1] The Bach recordings were released originally in 1937:
Sie galt als eine der führenden französischen Konzert-Altistinnen ihrer Generation, vor allem als große Bach-Interpretin. Sie war im Begriff, in ein Kloster einzutreten, als sie plötzlich starb. An ihrer zumal in den hohen Lagen trefflich gebildeten Stimme schätzte man die geistvolle Kunst des Vortrages wie die Meisterschaft der Phrasierung. Sie vertrat einen Stimmtyp, den man in Frankreich als 'Galli-Marié' bezeichnet (nach der großen Prinadonna Célestine Galli-Marié) Schallplatten: viele Odeon-Aufnahmen (1929-33), auch auf Columbia (Kurzfassung der Oper 'Mignon' von Thomas), auf Lumen (1937 mit geistlicher Musik von J.S. Bach und H.Schütz) und HMV (Gesamtaufnahme 'Pelléas et Mélisande') vertreten.
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That Pelleas is of course the Desormière. |
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Richard Raymond wrote (April 9, 2006):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] [M-1] I own this recording too. The soprano is MARTA ANGELICI (not Angerich...) who was a famous corsican singer, her husband was the director of Paris Opéra after 1945. She sang Micaëla, Bohême, Madama Butterfly, and ( magnificently ) recorded several LP's of sacred Music, including Charpentier's TE DEUM and Frens 18th century composers. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 10, 2006):
[To Richard] [M-1] On the Club 99 re-issue which I accidentally found the other day it is written: "With Marthe [sic] Angelich" for the BWV 78. Indeed I had not paid attention that for the BWV 4 "Den Tod Niemand zwingen kunnt" it is written: "With M. [sic] Angelici".
Furthermore inside on the booklet only the correct name is written.
Since I do indeed know Cernay but not the soprano, I did not bother to further check. I believe that neither recording is in Aryeh's database. I am not sure. Perhaps, Richard, you could be kind enough to check and help add both the listings and the biographies.
I fear that the LPs of sacred music are probably not transferred.
Thank you for the information.
N.B. no Angerich but an Angelich is the mistake of the CD and that my peccatum was only copying uncritically.
Best wishes, |
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Richard Raymond wrote (April 16, 2006):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] [M-1] I do not forget but I am rather busy those ti. I will check as soon as possible. I recommend CHARPENTIER's TE DEUM conducted by Louis-Martini in stereo, second recording of 1963. Martha ANGELICI produces quite moving singing. Erato LP not available on CD i'm afraid. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (April 20, 2006):
[To Richard] Well it seems that Aryeh has already made entries for both cantata segments (under their resp. BWV numbers) on the Club99 CD (and has found another source for the recordings in question, the reprint/ remastering co. HAfG with whose remasterings and notes on historical vocal recordings I have been quite unhappy but something is better than nothing) and for both singers in the biography section.
HAfG both indulges in over-processing (always) and (in my experience with an old and masterful recording of Gluck's Iphigenie en Aulide [1952]) to me, more dreadful, produces notes that are abominable to the extent of requiring one to recognize the music that is there in spite of what is labelled. I refer here to the numerous bonus tracks.
At all events this is a good result for those interested in such "antiquities". |
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Continue on Part 3 |
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