Bach Family
Discussions - Part 1

The Bach family

Francine Renee Hall wrote (April 22, 2003):
I just received as a gift a set of Hänssler Classics CDs called 'The Bach Family'. Has anyone heard it, got any good or poor vibes from it?

Thanks!

Thomas Radleff wrote (April 22, 2003):
[To Francine Renee Hall] Though usually I do not like Rilling´s recordings too much, I still have & keep this 3-CD-set. Some of the post-JSB works are hardly available on any other record, but all the pre-JSB pieces can be heard on one of these Alt-Bachisches Archiv compilations that we´ve been talking about some days ago - much better, in my ears.

Nevertheless, some pieces are great, e.g. Johann Christian Bach´s Dies Irae, and Wilhelm Friedemann´s Vater Unser. The booklet is very informative (at least in the edition that I have), and the whole set is a rich Bach-family-sacred-works-encyclopedia.

Francine Renee Hall wrote (April 23, 2003):
[To Thomas Radleff] Thanks for the info!

Bach descendant

Michael Dunn wrote (February 12, 2004):
Apparently actor Kyle McLaughlin claims to be descended from JSB!
Anyone know more about this?

Teri Noel Towe wrote (February 12, 2004):
[To Michael Dunn] I do not know anything specifice about this chap's claim (to be candid, I have never heard of him), but there is an article in Bach Perspectives 5, the 2002 Membership Gift from the American Bach Society, that sets forth in detail the remarkable story of how it was discovered that the only known direct descendants of Johann Sebastian Bach, the descendants of one of the daughters of Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, are here in the USA.

I suspect that you can get more information about obtaining a copy of Bach Perspectives 5 at the ABS website, www.americanbachsociety.org.

I hope that this helps.

CPE Bach SMP

John Pike wrote (March 10, 2005):

I see there is an interesting new release, which may be reviewed on BBC Radio3 this Saturday morning:

C.P.E. Bach St Matthew Passion:
Thomas Dewald (tenor), Daniel Jordan (baritone), Jochen Kupfer (baritone), Zelter-Ensemble der Sing-Akademie zu Berlin, Joshard Daus (conductor)
CAPRICCIO 60113
<>

Bach Ganealogy

Peter Smaill wrote (June 7, 2005):
In the aftermath of the "sexy" Bach dialogues, could we have a look at the genealogical interest which surrounds him?

The starting point is the observation that he sired 20 children, eight surviving. Yet the monograph "Basically Bach" by Herbert Kupferberg states that there were, by the end of the nineteenth century, no descendants at all.

This I doubt from other passing references; but is there anyone today claiming to be the most direct descendant, the leading genealogical heir ?

The second observation by the geneticists is the amazing predisposition to high musical talent, evident in the Bach Archive but presumably a spent force after CPE Bach, JC, WDF; any later Bach geniuses than this generation?

Bach also has genealogical interest as being the youngest son of old parents, a situation long thought to predispose to high intellect unless foetal abnormalities occur.His mother Elisabeth was about 41 when Bach was born; father Ambrosius of the same order, around 40. Incidentally I do find when meeting other Bach enthusiasts, and musically-interested company generally, that they are often (by no means always) children of older parents -late thirties onward at the date of birth.

On this I offer no scientific proof, but the theme was explored recently by the venerable UK "Spectator" magazine.

It may, overall, be the case the a combination of old genes in Bach and cousin intermarriage resulted over several generations in the shrinking of the Bach line, rather than the exponential growth which his own procreative powers would suggest. Bach's last living sibling Marie Salome died in 1727 aged 50, so at 66 he outlived his brothers and sisters by a fair gap !

John Pike wrote (June 8, 2005):
[To Peter Smaill] I suspect that "environment" plays a role here, if it is true. Older more mature parents may be better at bringing up children in the vital early years.

Bradley Lehman wrote (June 8, 2005):
< His mother Elisabeth was about 41 when Bach was born; father Ambrosius of the same order, around 40. >
Elisabeth Lämmerhirt. Davitt Moroney in writing his Bach bio went to the Eisenach phone directory in 1999, and remarked that there are still 13 Lämmerhirts listed there.

And Peter Williams in his bio also made the point that both JSB (as genealogy compiler) and CPEB (as Obituary writer) wanted to emphasize the musical skill coming not only from the Bach side but also the Lämmerhirt side.

Doug Cowling wrote (June 8, 2005):
[To Bradley Lehman] It would be interesting to see if a DNA trail could be established. If scientists had samples from known relatives (are there any marked graves for the Bach family?), they could then test in the present populations of the areas associated with Bach to see if there are descendants. And in the future perhaps even discover DNA material on the original manuscripts.

Then we could clone JSB!

John Pike wrote (June 8, 2005):
[To Bradley Lehman] absolutely fascinating.

Thomas Braatz wrote (June 8, 2005):
Bradley Lehman wrote: >>Elisabeth Lämmerhirt. Davitt Moroney in writing his Bach bio went to the Eisenach phone directory in 1999, and remarked that there are still 13 Lämmerhirts listed there.
And Peter Williams in his bio also made the point that both JSB (as genealogy compiler) and CPEB (as Obituary writer) wanted to emphasize the musical skill coming not only from the Bach side but also the Lämmerhirt side.<<
Both Moroney and Williams should then be interested in whether a certain Maren Lämmerhirt-Bach or her progeny are musically gifted. It seems that she has keyboard abilities as a secretary working for the Department of Education at Cologne University. Her contact information is available at: http://www.uni-koeln.de/ew-fak/seminar/histphil/abphilo/sekretariat.html

Moroney and Williams should probably investigate this modern-day confluence of these prestigious musical family lines!

John Pike wrote (June 8, 2005):
[To Thomas Braatz] Goodness gracious!

Cara Emily Thornton wrote (June 8, 2005):
[To Doug Cowling] Eek!!!

Robert Sherman wrote (June 8, 2005):
[To Cara Emily Thornton] Tom DeLay won't let us.

Cara Emily Thornton wrote (June 9, 2005):
[To Robert Sherman] You seriously wanted him to?

Robert Sherman wrote (June 9, 2005):
JSB the II

[To Cara Emily Thornton] It does make an interesting question. If it becomes possible, with high confidence that it will really work with no Dolly-the-sheep bad side effects, to clone long-dead people, would it be irresponsible to clone Bach? Or would it be irresponsible not to?

I don't know the answer but I want society to be able to evaluate it seriously. I don't want pietistic-posing politicians to foreclose the possibility of that evaluation.

Doug Cowling wrote (June 9, 2005):
[To Cara Emily Thornton] PEOPLE, IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!

Please don't start a cloning flame!

Peter Smaill wrote (June 10, 2005):
Thanks indeed for the news of Lammerhirt descendants, which is news to me.

5 out of 10 though-descendants presumably of Bach's Lammerhirt grandfather, but not JS himself. The Kupferberg quote is now to hand:

"altogether, Johann Sebastian Bach had twenty children, seventeen grandchildren, fourteen great-grandchildrenand one great-great-grandchild. The last survivor was a great granddaughter, Carolina Augusta Wilhelmine, daughter of Wilhelm Friedrich Ernst. She died on May 13th, 1871. Thus the great Bach line ended."

So we have a bit of a mystery in terms of the depletion of descendants.

CS Terry noted in his essay,"A Genealogical Problem," that there were seven musician Bachs surviving according to Riemann's Musik Lexikon of 1929. However, whether they were related in any degree is not clear, no certainty that any are descendants of JSB. Terry in the end however concurs that "since 13 May 1871 Bach's blood has ceased to flow in mortal veins."

Terry also notes that there were Bachs in England in 1642, a Bach marriage at St Martin in the Fields in 1709, and a rather posh union of Sally Bach in 1776 to a Charles Tenison of Hill Hall, Surrey.… A cousin of JSB's first wife, Johann Christoph Bach (b. 29 August 1676) taught the clavier in England. (Not to be confused with JSB's son, Johann Christian, the "English Bach," 1735-1782 and buried in St Pancras Churchyard, London.)

Now, what became of Johann Christoph, who travelled via Hamburg to London in the time of Handel?: and did he correspond with his cousin and her musical husband? Perhaps we shall never know ....

Ludwig wrote (June 10, 2005):
[To Peter Smaill] With as many little Bachs that JS fathered---there should be many many more today of them (more than the Jones, Smith and Williams families) and probally there are although their particular line is no longer directly from JS Bach.

Catherine Bach the actress perhaps could trace her lineage back to the family of J,S. The main problem with lineage geneology in western society is that is based on paternal geneology and not on maternal. One can not trace easily backwards anyone who might be a direct descendent of JS Bach paternally but this is very easily done with DNA analysis of the Maternal line and in fact one can trace one's lineage back more than 30,000 years by this method.

Joel Figen wrote (June 10, 2005):
Ludwig wrote:
< this is very easily done with DNA analysis of the Maternal line and in fact one can trace one's lineage back more than 30,000 years by this method. >
Mitochondrial DNA analysis traces the maternal line, as you say. Analysis of the Y chromosome does exactly the same for the male line. At least there's a touch of equality here :)

Doug Cowling wrote (June 10, 2005):
[To Joel Fugen] Given that there is no direct DNA evidence for Bach such as Beethoven's hair, are there authentic gravesites of close relatives on both sides which could hypothetically provide the DNA from which a model for a direct descendent of JSB be postulated? I don;t know the science, but could that model than be tested in the population to see if there are direct descenents still alive.

Joel Figen wrote (June 10, 2005):
[To Doug Cowling] An adequate study might conceivably be designed without digging up any bones, just by looking for people and testing DNA. It's rather like solving a crime.

This seems a little like the case of an African tribe that claimed to be Jewish. DNA testing revealed that they were indeed not merely Jews but descendents of the ancient priesthood. This was done by looking at markers in the Y chromosome. If we just got a sample from all the living Bachs and Lämmerhirts it might be possible to figure it out. Anyone up for stealing a few toothbrushes? :)

Is JS Bach's burial site known? If we're going to start digging, we might consider starting with him.

Cara Emily Thornton wrote (June 10, 2005):
[To Robert Sherman] I tend to think that there are certain things which might be good, but if they go bad, the consequences will be so terrible that the risk is not worth it. Quite frankly, I put nuclear energy in that category. I don't think they should ever have developed it in the first place. I think cloning also falls into that category. As long as human beings continue to be imperfect, there is always a chance that it could be used as part of some nefarious genetics program - not to mention the misunderstandings about who the clone is and is not.

And I think the government does have the right to make that kind of decisions - though why they are not willing to permit cloning, though they permitted the development of nuclear energy and even have the temerity to make use of it for nefarious purposes, I do not pretend to understand. It's the same deal as with abortion: they think abortion is wrong - but then they think it's just fine to drop bombs on people. It sounds like they respect human life only before birth - after, is another matter. I think the real issue with the unborn has little to do with 'respect for human life' and everything to do with keeping women 'in their place'.

My two cents' worth.

Johann Ludwig Bach

Continue of discussion from: Hermann Max - General Discussions [Performers]

Lex Schelvis wrote (May 14, 2006):
This morning I attended a concert in the Concertgebouw Amsterdam (one of the better places to hear Bach) by Das Kleine Konzert & Rheinische Kantorei, director Hermann Max. They played a cantata by Johann Ludwig Bach: 'Die Weisheit kommt nicht in eine boshafte Seele', the Motette 'Der Geist hilft unserer Schwachheit auf" (BWV 226), and 'Ich hab' in Gottes Herz und Sinn' (BWV 92). The big surprise for me was the composition by Johann Ludwig, everybody always told me he was a minor composer, but I don't agree, now that I've heard this cantata. I should have known, Bach probably played 18 cantatas by his cousin in 1726, so he really must have liked the music. (I still don't like the Luke Passion though.)

For the interested ones: only this week the concert is on internet:

Go to www.avroklassiek.nl, click on 'Luisterkamer' left on the screen, then 'Radio-archief' on the right side of your screen, then on 'Zondagochtend Concert'.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 14, 2006):
Lex Schelvis wrote:
< They played a cantata by Johann Ludwig Bach: 'Die Weisheit kommt nicht in eine boshafte Seele', the Motette 'Der Geist hilft unserer Schwachheit auf" (BWV 226), and 'Ich hab' in Gottes Herz und Sinn' (BWV 92). The big surprise for me was the composition by Johann Ludwig, everybody always told me he was a minor composer, but I don't agree, now that I've heard this cantata. I should have known, Bach probably played 18 cantatas by his cousin in 1726, so he really must have liked the music. >
Johann Ludwig definitely derserves to be performed more frequently. His double-choir motet, "Das ist meine Freude" is superb, and its repreated "Das" prefigures Bach's opening of "Komm Jesus Komm".

Eric Bergerud wrote (May 15, 2006):
Two of J.L. Bach's works (including 'meine Freude') are on the charming CD "Bach Family Motets by the Calre College Choir under Timothy Brown. It carries what is now a budget price tag. (It does look as though the days of the $5.00 CD are gone. Hope that's a good thing for the business.)

CPE Magnificat

Continue of discussion from: Bach o Ring Tones [General Topics]

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 24, 2006):
Mike Mannix wrote:
< How do I get a ringtone which plays opening of CPE Bach Magnificat? >
Inasmuch as the Rössl-Majdan CPEB Magnificat has never appeared on CD, I ask again for worthy recordings to be recommended of this work. I used to hear it as bearing many similto the Magnificat of Prolific Papa but longer.

Thanks,

Douglas Cowling wrote (June 24, 2006):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] I think the Choir of King's College, Cambridge recorded on Argo.

Richard wrote (June 25, 2006):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] This Magnificat was probably performed in the presence of Johann Sebastian Bach in 1749 . It is of course an homage to his Music by his son, and quotes several themes of Sebastian's own Magnificat which was written 26 years earlier.

The Amadeo-Vanguard recording is rather disappointing with very bad choir singing and an awful recording. There is a good performance conducted by Kurt Thomas on DHM 05472 77461 2 but this CD seems to be deleted.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 25, 2006):
Family discography (was C.P.E.B)

[To Richard] Thank you, Richard,

I now have more than a few recordings of Johann Christoph Bach's "Ach, dass ich Wassers gnug hätte" and of his "Wie bist Du denn, O Gott, in Zorn auf mich entbrannt" and a few other such "family members' cantatas" that I have come to the conclusion that a full discography of the works of the rest of the family would be very useful to many of us as the recordings increase all the time.

I am happy, if interest is there, to make a list of what I have but I am sure that Aryeh and others here have these too.

Mike Mannix wrote (June 26, 2006):
I seem to have stirred it up with my recommendation of CPE Bach Magnificat as a ringtone.

My own recording is Ledger (Decca Ovation) with King's college and Acad of St Martin in the Fields.

For those who have never heard it, the work is notable for the uncompromising speed of its initial 'attack'. I can't think of any sacred choral work which begins with such fury. Sorry, I don't know how the origianl tempo is marked; presto, maybe! This makes it perfect for ringtones.

My first experience of it was under the late Roger Bullivant at a Sheffield Bach Society performance. Although it is a reworking of the JSB Magnificat, it stands by its own strengths and weaknesses.

The finale is especially effective, illustrating what a splendid composer CPEB might have been if he had not been 'trapped' in the stylistic no-man's land between the Baroque and Classical periods.

Jean Laaninen wrote (June 26, 2006):
[To Mike Mannix] Now no one reading the emails on this forum will ever forget that the opening of this piece begins with a fury...thanks to the ring tone discussion. Fortunately for Bach he lived in a time when ring tones didn't dominate the world of sound. Why even the Western Mockingbirds that live in my nieghborhood now mimic the ring tones of various cell phones---adding diversity to what fills the airwaves. When you pick a ring tone you just never know where it may finally find a home.

Julian Mincham wrote (June 26, 2006):
Mike Mannix wrote:
< The finale is especially effective, illustrating what a splendid composer CPEB might have been if he had not been 'trapped' in the stylistic no-man's land between the Baroque and Classical periods. >
I have to register disagreement with this statement. A hearing of the 6 symphonies Wq 182 or a number of the concerti and piano sonatas should dispel any doubts as to whether CPE was a 'great' composer or not. I would suggest that his main handicap was not the stylistic changes which were taking place throughout his formative years, but the shadow of his father. It does him great credit, I think that he forged his own individual pathwayand developed a style of originality and great emotional intensity at a time when 'pleasant diversion' -----something in which his younger brother JC Bach excelled----was the norm.

Had it not been for the overshadowing reputation of his even more eminent father I think we would today be celebrating CPE as one of the handful of really great Baroque composers, on a footing with Handel and Telemann.

Richard wrote (June 26, 2006):
[To Julian Mincham] I do not find the finale very interesting, the fugue looks endless and very scholastic. On the contrary CPE Bach seems to have found his way through the pre-romantic style. It a matter of taste of course...

Ed Myskowski wrote (June 26, 2006):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< I think that he forged his own individual pathway and developed a style of originality and great emotional intensity at a time when 'pleasant diversion' -----something in which his younger brother JC Bach xcelled----was the norm. >
I thought to let this discussion pass, but I want to register my agreement with Julian's statement. Indeed, it may be CPE's originality itself, not just his father's eminence, which contributed to his secondary reputation. Without any real research into dates etc., (and so correction is welcome) I have long thought of him as providing a link with subsequent composers, especially Haydn's Sturm und Drang (sp?) pieces.

Raymond Joly wrote (June 26, 2006):
[To Ed Myskowski] I think both writers below are perfectly right. I remember reading that in the second half of the 18th century, when people said "Bach", they meant Carl Philipp Emanuel. Is that true?

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 26, 2006):
[To Raymond Joly] That is NOT correct. They meant Johann Christian Bach who was of course VERY POPULAR.

It is he who---like Liszt later on--- may be deemed the founder of the NEW MUSIC, post-baroque music. I prefer all the other Bachs whom I have heard at all, well not the ones with barely no recorded music, to J.Ch. Bach. But it is he whom they meant.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 26, 2006):
Richard wrote:
< There is a good performance conducted by Kurt Thomas on DHM 05472 77461 2 but this CD seems to be deleted. >
Ah, but a deleted CD is a different matter than an LP NEVER transferred.Burns of CDs are fairly easy. Transfers of gems never digitized are another matter.

I wonder whether we cannot start to make a discography of C.P.E's Magnificat. We have the Rössl-Majdan, the Thomas, the Ledger, and one Doug mentioned on ARGO (an LP, I assume). A listing with soloists and choir would be good. The old Rilling is easily available but I understand it if from the 1970s when I walked out on Rilling's series of h-moll Messe and the two Passions as they were so bad. Inter alia in the MP no Gamba, UGH.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 26, 2006):
Mike Mannix wrote:
< My own recording is Ledger (Decca Ovation) with King's college and Acad of St Martin in the Fields. >
Please, Mike, Doug, and others, do indicate whether any recording to which you refer is on CD and whether the soloists and the chorus are German. Extraordinary singers can of course be non-German but, as also with French
and Russian vocal music, I vastly prefer native speakers. And I think I shall find a friend to transfer my Rössl-Majdan, however bad the choir was said to be. It has a deep meaning for me as a performances, not necessarily as a work.

Too bad that no Bach Daughters wrote music.

Thomas Jaenicke wrote (June 26, 2006):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] At JPC/CPO you can find another old recording of the Magnificat (+Symphonies Wq. 173 & 180) coducted by Haenchen with Hruba-Freiberger, Bornemann, Schreier, Bär, Rundfunkchor Berlin, Kammerorch." CPE Bach". I haven't listened to this recording but normally Haenchen is in the same class as Rilling, IMHO

Neil Mason wrote (June 26, 2006):
[To Ed Myskowski] Yes, Sturm und Drang indeed.

I recently conducted one of his oratorios which could be regarded as a textbook example of this.

Mike Mannix wrote (June 26, 2006):
A friend onceasked me who it was who freed the keyboard from its formalist sonata-based restrictions, paving the way for Beethoven.

The answer is CPEB with his wild fantasias and his strange changes of tempo and mood.

Unfortunately these are too ill-disciplined - as though he was unable to sustain a single train of methodic thought for long.

Has anyone heard his contributions to the Anna-Magdelena Notebook? His individual style comes across clearly, even though he was a mere child.

To escape from the restrictions of the ultimate musical teacher at such a young age is an achivement indeed!

Mike Mannix wrote (June 26, 2006):
Will do Je Suis,

As a Brit I am not familiar with the name Rosel-Majdan at all. The CPE Magnificat appearas to have had a performance life in UK before the Leger, St Martin in field Decca recording of 1976.

The Bach women have been airbrushed from history. Little is known about them. The resdicovery of the Anna Magdelena portrait would be a significant event, if it were to happen.

Douglas Cowling wrote (June 27, 2006):
Richard wrote:
< I do not find the finale very interesting, the fugue looks endless and very scholastic. >
Sometimes "scholastic" is just what's needed. "Sicut locutus est" in J.S. Bach's Magnificat (BWV 243) is happily academic -- I've always though of it as an old-fashioned hommage to his predecessors, the Bach "patres" who taught him his craft. Its austerity is the perfect foil to the explosion of orchestral colour around it.

Bach's Magnificat is my Desert Island Choice -- you hear a microcosm all ofBach's vocal and choral styles in 23 minutes.

Ed Myskoeski wrote (June 27, 2006):
Mike Mannix wrote:
< Unfortunately these are too ill-disciplined - as though he was unable to sustain a single train of methodic thought for long. >
I promised myself not to get distracted from BWV 10, too late now. One person's <ill-disciplined> is another's Sturm und Drang.

My only recording of the CPE Bach Magnificat is a 1965 Archiv LP, including Hertha Töpper, A; Ernst Haefliger, T; NDR Hamburg Symphony, Adolf Deter. I originally discovered this music when there was an overnight classical music program in Boston which used the beginning of the opening chorus (Wq215/1), as theme music at midnight, for about fifteen years in the 1960's and 70's, without identifying it . I heard it what must have been thousands of times, thinking it was Bach pere, but never able to figure out what. And knowing it, like one of Jean's mockingbirds learning ring tones. One day (about twenty years ago) I saw the LP in a second hand bin, and took a chance. The rest is history.

I haven't looked at it for many years, but at the time it did send me into a wonderfully ill-disciplined frenzy of listening to all the CPE I could find. Now that I have it off the shelf again:

(1) The entire recording is in the same character as the Richter/Bach recordings. The A/T duet and A aria (Wq 215/6&7) are superb! I wish I had the Rossl-Majdan for comparison, Yoel. It appears neither of these recordings is available on CD. Time for you to recommission a turntable, or send me your R-M LP?

(2) Naturally, because there was plenty of liner paperboard on a 12 inch LP, there was plenty of room for liner notes. I don't believe I ever took the trouble to read these previously, or perhaps I did and absorbed them subliminally (if that is an OK word internationally). You know, thought I invented something I actually borrowed. It is a common defense for plagiarism these days.

(3) The notes by Gisela Gantert include:

CPE Bach's importance as a composer of keyboard and chamber music has long been recognized and respected by musicologists; he is regarded today [1965] as the essential pathfinder for the masters of the classical period. <Bach is the father, we the children. Whoever among us can do anything well has learned it from him ...>, wrote Mozart about the son of the Cantor of St. Thomas's. This is not exactly the source sought by M. Joly, but in the vein. Unfortunately, the Mozart quote is undocumented, so it is difficult to be sure he was referring to CPE, not JC, or even JS, nor to confirm its authenticity. Opinions? Job for a grad student? Otherwise, the liner notes and recording are superb.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 27, 2006):
Mike Mannix wrote:
< As a Brit I am not familiar with the name Rosel-Majdan at all. The CPE Magnificat appearas to have had a performance life in UK before the Leger, St Martin in field Decca recording of 1976. >

I am not sure that being a Brit has to do with it. I am an American and yet I listen to this woman forever and she of course is an Austrian. Go to Aryeh's short bios, rather outdated as so many more of her live performances have appeared on CD since the time we put that together. I understand Richard's objections to the performance as a whole (I haven't listened in years).

However extraordinary singers are very important to me.

Back to being a Brit, well I have heard of and heard Janet Baker in many things and I ain't no Brit.

Richard wrote (June 27, 2006):
[To Douglas Cowling] You are right of course. it is an archaic homage. But the musical language is very poor compared with Sebastian 's density. I don't feel that Emmanuel was very happy wit his fugues...

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (June 27, 2006):
Haenchen and Aw (was: CPE Magnificat)

Thomas Jaenicke wrote:
< At JPC/CPO you can find another old recording of the Magnificat (+Symphonies Wq. 173 & 180) coducted by Haenchen with Hruba-Freiberger, Bornemann, Schreier, Bär, Rundfunkchor Berlin, Kammerorch."CPE Bach". I haven't listened to this recording but normally Haenchen is in the same class as Rilling, IMHO >
Haenchen is a man about whom I primarily know one thing.There is a series of 10 small volumes of Mahler Pseudepigrapha that appears in a bilingual Dutch-German edition of which I have a single volume-ette. Haenchen is of course the pseudepigraphist himself and while I find the volume-ette obvious, others have been offended by what they perceive as a hoax.

And of course, as you note, he calls at least one of his orchestras after C.P.E.B. himself. There are a few Haenchen Bach Family orchestral CDs at Berkshire which I have not investigated.

Johann Ludwig Bach

Johan van Veen wrote (August 2, 2006):
Some time ago there was a short exchange regarding the works of Johann Ludwig Bach.

I have become acquainted with his music through recordings by Hermann Max, which were broadcast by WDR Cologne. In the 1980's (I think) he recorded four cantatas for Carus, which I liked a lot. I am happy to refer to a recent reissue of these recordings.

The four cantatas are:
Mache dich auf, werde licht; Ja, mir hast du Arbeit gemacht; Er machet uns lebendig; Die mit Tränen säen
Performers: Barbara Schlick, Mary Nichols, Wilfried Jochens, Stephen Varcoe, Jugendkantorei Dormagen; Das Kleine Konzert/Hermann Max
http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=CDNeuerscheinungen

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 2, 2006):
Johan van Veen wrote:
< Some time ago there was a short exchange regarding the works of Johann Ludwig Bach.
The four cantatas are:
Mache dich auf, werde licht; Ja, mir hast du Arbeit gemacht; Er machet uns lebendig; Die mit Tränen säen >
The Tallis Choir of Toronto has performed his "Das ist meine Freude" several times and it is a first-rate work which deserves wider currency. It is characterized by great antiphonal shouts of "Das, das" between the two cwhich have always reminded me of the similar effects in "Komm, Jesu, Komm" and even of the opening of the SMP (BWV 244).

And while on the subject of Bach motets ...

The Tallis Choir is going to perform all six motets in concert next season (I need to start eating my vocal Wheaties!). We'll perform them with organ and cello. As contrast between the motets, we're thinking off asking the cellist to play movements from the unaccompanied cello suites.

Any suggestions? Are there movements you would think would work well?

John Pike wrote (August 2, 2006):
[To Douglas Cowling] I have that recording mentioned by Johan. I agree. There's some very nice music in there. A pity he and several other Bach's are overshadowed by the great master himself.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 2, 2006):
Bach Family

[To John Pike] For its concert, "The Funeral of J.S. Bach", the Tallis Choir of Toronto also performed Johann Christoph Bach's "Lieber Herr Gott, wecke uns auf", which Wolff suggests was copied by Sebastian in preparation for his own funeral. Again a fine, fine work, echoes of which can be heard throughout Bach's own choral works.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (August 3, 2006):
[To Johan van Veen] The Chapelle des Minimes (Brussels) has performed 'Die mit Tränen säen' on April 23^rd, 2006: http://www.minimes.be/avril2006.jpg
On the same day we had another concert where we performed other works by the Bach family (Johann, Johann Christoph, Johann Christoph Friedrich): http://www.minimes..be/avril%202006sablon.jpg
I particularly liked 'Fürchte dich nicht' by Johann Cristoph.

Recordings recommendations for cantatas by Js Bach's sons

Barry wrote (November 8, 2006):
I appreciate that this question is a little ot, but I hope it's close enough for people not to mind too much.

I am very fond of JS Bach's cantatas. From these, I have explored similar works by his predecessors and contemporaries such as Buxtehude and Telemann.Reading the discussions of BWV 80b, and the modifications attributed to WF Bach, I wondered about the cantata output, if any, of Bach's sons.Can anyone recommend suitable recordings, preferably on period instruments? Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Bach and 16 vestal virgins

Rick Canyon wrote (November 10, 2006):
Article in the Times of London: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2446338,00.html

Douglas Cowling wrote (November 10, 2006):
[To Rick Canyon] Maybe we can make the Supremes pay royalites for using the Minuet in G for ³Symphony of Love²

Eric Bergerud wrote (November 10, 2006):
[To Rick Canyon] I suppose after 275 years Bach's music must now be considered in the public domain. Clearly another case of a skilled artist being born in the wrong generation. Does anyone know if there is a Bach family of any kind? You'd think with all of those kids that there'd be some people today that could trace their blood line to JSB. (With all of this Bach numerology and religious code built into his music that I've been hearing about, maybe there'd be a book in it. Something like "Bach Decoded." Or maybe if someone examined his scores very very closely one could find out that in musical code he predicted the Chicago Fire, the Franco-Prussian War, the 2000 American election and other historic catastrophes.)

Peter Smaill wrote (November 11, 2006):
[To Eric Bergerud] Until last year I have followed the orthodoxy that there were no direct heirs to Bach following the death on 13 May 1871 of the great granddaughter Frau Ritter. (per Charles Sandford Terry). However , the Bach scholar William Scheide maintains that successors to W F E Bach, extant first in Russia and then in the U S A, are alive to this day.

William Rowland (Ludwig) wrote (November 11, 2006):
[To Peter Smaill] The problem with the past is that women had no rights. However Genetics have shown that they are very important in tracing our DNA family history.

Bach had several daughters. So their genes are called by another name these days. However, I have often wondered if Catherine Bach, the actress and sometimes singer, had JS Bach genes in her.

Rick Canyon wrote (November 11, 2006):
Ludwig wrote:
< However, I have often wondered if Catherine Bach, the actress and sometimes singer, had JS Bach genes in her. >
Is she the one married to Ringo Starr? (probably 'was'married by now) or, is that Barbara Bach? or, are Catherine and Barbara one and the same? Regardless, the idea of Bach's line being continued through Ringo...

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