Johannes-Passsion BWV 245
General Discussions - Part 2

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St John Passion in MIDI

Paolo Massa wrote (January 11, 2002):
Does anyone of you know where could I find a MIDI or Encore version (complete or not) of Bach's St. John Passion?. Another question: where can I download any musical software for handhelds (palm, cassiopeia, etc.)?

The St John Passion

Peter Bright wrote (March 5, 2002):
After the explosion of posts in the last few days, things have gone eerily quiet - so, just to rectify things I am posting a review of the St John Passion, directed by Simon Rattle last month at the Birmingham Symphony Hall, UK. The glowing review here from the Independent was matched in various other newspapers too - I'm sorry I missed it. It featured the singers David Wilson-Johnson, Mark Padmore and Ian Bostridge among other top-flight singers.

Simon Rattle/CBSO, Symphony Hall, Birmingham

True power of the Passion

Roderic Dunnett
19 February 2002
Rattle's return. Inevitably a great occasion. But Sir Simon Rattle put on no airs for his latest reappearance with the CBSO. Instead, he preferred to pass on applause to the players he had nursed and learned with over two decades: to Peter Thomas, the doughty leader - an unsung hero of modern music-making in England - to the solo wind, and to the magnificently on-form CBSO chorus. The chorus has been trained to perfection by Simon Halsey, and Rattle played on it like an instrument - one which responded to his every touch - producing one of its finest performances to date.

There are moments in the St John Passion where you feel that if just a couple of passages - the stark baritone arioso "Betrachte, meine Seel", plus the tenor aria "Erwage, wie sein" - were dug from a bombed-out Leipzig, we would know how supreme a composer Bach was. Though the balances didn't always favour him, David Wilson-Johnson, doubling roles, brought rich characterisation to every aria (notably "Eilt, ihr" and "Mein teurer Heiland", with sensitive cello obbligato from Ulrich Heinen over a chorus stunningly folded in by Rattle) and strong personality not just to Christ, but to Pilate: his "Von wannen bist du?" and sotto voce "Was ist Wahrheit?"
were as unnerving as Wozzeck.

Repeatedly, Bach's dramatic sense foils us with the unexpected. He spoils us with two tenor soloists : the Evangelist was Ian Bostridge, riveting even where accident-prone: from his very first "mit Fackeln, Lampen und mit Waffen" we were lashed by the horror of Judas's betrayal. Part of Bostridge's allure is that he palatalises his vowels into a kind of Platt-Deutsch, which lends his narration a kind of Tin Drum feel, as if the Evangelist were an excitable cockney. His sense of onomatopeia is faultless, his feel for forward momentum, compensated by cheeky rubato, thrilling. He shares with Rattle the ability to spring awed surprise: at the seamlessness of Christ's robe, for instance ("Der Rock aber war ungenahet").

The other tenor was Mark Padmore, whose wonderful directness (he is Deborah Warner's Evangelist in next month's ENO staging) stands out in crystal relief beside Bostridge. His high notes are secure; his first aria was shattering. The tiny rein-in engineered by him with Rattle on "Der allerschonste Regenbogen" ("God's rainbow") - varied on the repeat – was classic. If Michael Chance's alto felt thinnish in tone for "Von den Stricken", his sheer professionalism, abetted by Richard Tunnicliffe's wonderfully unassuming viola da gamba for "Es ist vollbracht", carried him through: his a cappella fade-out before the repeat was heart-rending. Likewise Susan Gritton's "Zerfliesse, mein Herz".

Yet above all, the evening was the choir's. If Rattle's risky, almost beatless opening momentarily flummoxed some strings - paradoxically, it's not the way to elicit long line (Bach does that for you) - the calibre of entries and inner-part control was astonishing, and Rattle's mastery of it all impressive. This growing performance already has the makings of a great one.

Juozas Rimas wrote (March 6, 2002):
Peter Bright wrote:
< There are moments in the St John Passion where you feel that if just a couple of passages - the stark baritone arioso "Betrachte, meine Seel", plus the tenor aria "Erwage, wie sein" - were dug from a bombed-out Leipzig, we >
Ouch, I didn't know much of Bach had to be searched for after WWII. Is there information about how many Bach's works have been lost during WWII? Maybe some of them were transported to the Soviet Union (along with the paintings etc that have been returned to Germany only last year) and still rest in the KGB's archives? Not likely, of course, but were there any researches on this?

1725 St. John’s Passion Recordings

Jaime Jean wrote (April 15, 2002):
Has the 1725 St John's Passion ever been recorded?

George Murnu wrote (April 15, 2002):
[To Jaime Jean] I am not sure but I think the Arte Nova set under Josuard Daus (SP ?) is the 1725 version. But Rilling's second recording has included the 1725 arias, and also has a lecture of differences between versions; this is true at least in the original pressing of the recording and I don't know if the pressing used for the Hanssler Bach Edition retains the arias and commentary.

Riccardo Nughes wrote (April 15, 2002):
[To Jaime Jean] I know 2 recordings of the 1725 "version" :
- Peter Neumann (MDG);
- P.Herreweghe (Harmonia Mundi).

Arias from the 1725 score are included in Rilling (Hanssler) & Suzuki (Bis).

Aryeh Oron wrote (April 18, 2002):
[To Jaime Jean & Riccardo Nughes] There is a third recording of the 1725 version by Craig Smith & Emmanuel Music (Koch International).

All the recordings of SJP are listed in: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV245.htm

Rajeev Aloysius wrote (April 15, 2002):
[To Jaime Jean] I think it was Jesus doing the suffering, not St. John, and Bach doing the composing not the Evangelist? Some people advocate the description "The Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ according to St. John" or "The St. John Passion" (what 'kind' of passion)

Philippe Herreweghe's French-made Harmonia Mundi recording comes to mind for 1725 version.

Alan Richards wrote (April 17, 2002):
Indeed the Harmonia Mundi release with Herreweghe (HMC 901748.49) is the one to go for if you want a complete performance of the 1725 version. In fact I know of no other recording that follows this pattern. It's also great to see Mark Padmore finally getting a chance to record in the role of the Evangelist.
http://www.harmoniamundi.com/prod_main.asp?numb=901748.49

There is also the Column's Classics recording of "The St. John Passion"* which has been reissued on Regis (RRC 2003) which includes an appendix of the 1725 arias and choruses. This recording features the choir of King's College Cambridge and John Mark Ainsley as the Evangelist.
http://www.regisrecords.co.uk/regisrecords/Alpha/RRC2003.html

Simon Roberts wrote (April 17, 2002):
[To Alan Richards] I hope that he remains in the cast as the Evangelist and tenor 1 in McCreesh's forthcoming SMP; he was magnificent in the performance I attended last month - easily one of the best Evangelists I've encountered on or off records.

Sybrand Bakker wrote (April 17, 2002):
[To Simon Roberts] I attended the Vredenburg concert with the SMP a few years ago with McCreesh and Padmore, and I was quite disappointed. Take any German singer like Pregardien or better still the legendary Kurt Equiluz, and Padmore will look like an extinguishing candle, and sound silly and bleak.

I don't want to start a flame war on this, but is my impression correct that English born or native English speakers will always prefer English singers in this repertoire? You might be acquainted with Jan Nuchelmans 'mother-tongue' theory (which states every singer should stick to it's own tongue), and I'm more and more inclined to subscribe to it, writing off any English reof German repertoire as 'cold' and 'superficial'. I'm not discussing Emma Kirkby here, sometimes nicknamed as the 'singing fridge' You can say many things about John Eliot Gardiner, but he really shouldn't perform Bach, he doesn't understand him, and in his documentary he was explaining things about Bach that could be contradicted by any biography and not only by people like Christoph Wolff.

Finally: I have a disc 'Faire is the heaven' with choral music of almost 10 centuries, sung by an ensemble conducted by John Rutter, and the strange thing on this disc is there doesn't seem to be any stylistic difference between any century, and English choral music never changed from one century to another. I know this isn't true, but that is how the disc sounds.

Of course there might be a chance Padmore is more familiar with the SMP after a few years, but I don't think I will call him ever 'magnificent'.

Mark Slater wrote (April 18, 2002):
Sybrand Bakker wrote:
< Don't want to start a flame war on this, but is my impression correct that English born or native English speakers will always prefer English singers in this repertoire? You might be acquainted with Jan Nuchelmans 'mother-tongue' theory (which states every singer should stick to it's own tongue). >
Sybrand, I am here to tell you that I heard a French singer (Sylvie Valayre) sing a Salome last week that absolutley blew me away. Her diction was perfect. When the score called for FFF, she delivered it. The diction from everyone onstage was perfect. Finally, I think, Placido Domingo has done some fine work directing the Washington Opera.

William D. Kasimer wrote (April 22, 2002):
[To Jaime Jean] Kenneth Slowik includes the alternate music from the 1725 version as appendices to his excellent Smithsonian recording. Highly recommended, and there's a copy on eBay (not mine), currently under a buck. If this link doesn't work, it's item #861074176. eBay

Jaime Jean wrote (April 25, 2002):
Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions.

The Opening Chorus of the SJP

Neil wrote (October 30, 2002):
I'm looking for a recording with the following characteristics.

1.Tempo about 64 crotchets to the minute. (Andante)

2.Bassoon(s) clearly heard in the (marching) bass; differentiation between the (quaver length) repeated notes in the cellos, and the (crotchet length) notes in the double basses (violones).

3.The three upper string parts clearly audible, and in tune. (this latter apparently difficult to achieve in this music with continous semi-quavers in the upper strings.

4.Forward presence of the woodwind instruments.

5.Incisive singing from the choir.

I seem to recall a recording somewhere out there with these qualities.

My verdict on the Philips Classics release (468 162-2), with Netherlands Radio Choir and Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (titled Choruses and Arias from the SJP): "Muddy" with only the first of the above items realized.

For those of us who dislike 'operatic' vibrato, the rest of the CD is best avoided; it's not pleasant to have to turn off the beautiful aria 'Zerfleiise, mein Herze' because the soprano (Agnes Giebel) has a vibrato so wide you can 'drive a truck through it', (to borrow some one else's phrase).

Bradley Lehman wrote (October 30, 2002):
[To Neil] That's quite a tall order at such a slow tempo. Are you sure you wouldn't like it a couple notches faster than that, still a strong mood but with an easier forward flow, and some urgency to it?

Juozas Rimas wrote (October 30, 2002):
[To Neil] I'd like to understand those musical terms (quavers etc :))) but, anyway, I enjoyed Herreweghe's rendition. If you have listened to it, does it match any of your requirements?

Neil wrote (October 30, 2002):
[To Bradley Lehman] That tempo works out at 10:14, according to the CD notes. (I timed it at about 64 crotchets per minute; am I wrong?) Anyway, I regard the tempo on the CD - conducted by Eugen Jochum in the late 60's - as offering the most dramatic realisation, provided the other elements I mentioned can be heard.

I know of the much faster more recent performances; as a matter of fact, though, I heard a high speed version in London in 1971(!); must have been the beginning of HIP. I find that quick tempo versions miss the point of this uniquely dramatic music. And I presume Bach meant the complex three-part polyphony (all semi-quavers) in the upper strings, to be heard - more unlikely as the speed increases, I think. I would have thought it would be easier to achieve the performance with the characteristics I noted, at a slower tempo; eg, one can sing semi-quavers at a moderate tempo AND be incisive.

How much faster is 'a couple of notches'?

Neil wrote (October 30, 2002):
[To Juozas Rimas] The length of the chorus is 10 minutes, 14 seconds. Do you know timing of Herreweghe's version?

Regarding your question about musical terms, the Eulenburg Edition score (or any other score) reveals all. The black notes with no tail on the stem are crotchets, notes with one tail on the stem are quavers, notes with double tails on their stems, mostly joined in groups of four, are semiquavers ; in this piece, 4 crotchets (equals 8 quavers equals 16 semi-quavers) to the bar. Got it?

Juozas Rimas wrote (October 30, 2002):
Neil wrote:
< The length of the chorus is 10 minutes, 14 seconds. Do you know timing of Herreweghe's version? >
It's 10:00 and I think it's about the optimum. Harnoncourt's 9:27 sounds already a bit more messy but not by much. The music has intense dramatism and dragging would diminish it.

Thomas Radleff wrote (October 30, 2002):
[To Neil] It´s only the first of your demands that is fulfilled by Scherchen´s SJP recording from 1961/62: it lasts 10´54´´.

But the Vienna Academy Chorus, especially on this track, is terrible: fat, screaming vibrato, and unprecise - sometimes it takes about 1/16 until all of them are present. The whole orchestra recording also is rather muddy. The only moment of suspense in this opening chorus is at the first fermata, before the fugato "Zeig uns durch deine..." Later, the choir surprises with fine subtleness when they celebrate some short chorusses sotto voce, and the Scherchen-typical slow tension starts to live.

In this recording, the soloists are quite good (e.g. in Scherchen´s h-moll-Messe the bass spoils almost all of it)
Evangelist: John van Kesteren
Jesus: Otto Wiener

Another one in which the instruments are very well balanced and clearly audible, has been recorded 1989 in Washington D.C. by the Smithsonian Chamber Players and Chorus, dir. by Kenneth Slowik. HIP, of course. Opening chorus: 8:34

The choir also sounds rather massive, and I was surprised to see that it consists only of 12 people! - they also supply the solo parts; Julianne Baird, Jane Bryden and Jeffrey Thomas are among them.

Bradley Lehman wrote (October 30, 2002):
Neil wrote:
< That tempo works out at 10:14, according to the CD notes. (I timed it at about 64 crotchets per minute; am I wrong?) Anyway, I regard the tempo on the CD - conducted by Eugen Jochum in the late 60's - as offering the most dramatic realisation, provided the other elements I mentioned can be heard.
I know of the much faster more recent performances; as a matter of fact, though, I heard a high speed version in London in 1971(!); must have been the beginning of HIP. >
Some timings:

Ferdinand Grossmann/Vienna Symphony (VoxBox, 1960): 8'20"
Herrmann Scherchen/Vienna St Opera: 10'25"
Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Hans Gillesberger)/CMW: 10'53"
Philippe Herreweghe/Chappelle Royale: 10'07"
Stephen Cleobury/Brandenburg Consort: 8'33"
Kenneth Slowik/Smithsonian: 8'30"
Jeannette Sorrell/Apollo's Fire (in English!): 9'25"

< I find that quick tempo versions miss the point of this uniquely dramatic music. And I presume Bach meant the complex three-part polyphony (all semi-quavers) in the upper strings, to be heard - more unlikely as the speed increases, I think. >
I don't presume he expected it to be heard as polyphony. Isn't the polyphony simply his craftsmanship, method of putting together the piece and keeping it going? This movement (especially in the undulating figure of the upper strings) sounds to me like a fairly standard Baroque evocation of waves, maybe with a boat bobbing on them. Broad brush-strokes, setting a mood for the drama to come. This opening scene puts us in media res into motion.

That's what it feels like to sit in the middle of the orchestra playing continuo, anyway: all those parts swirling around on all sides while the continuo line keeps a steady throbbing beat, and the chorus crying out "Lord! Lord!" in whatever language. It gives me the impression of being in the scene where the disciples are in a boat and see Jesus walking on the water...or any of the other water stories in the book of John; there are many.

And, when this work is performed in a hall or church with any appreciable resonance, all the semiquavers blend together into a broad effect rather than polyphony anyway!

< I would have thought it would be easier to achieve the performance with the characteristics I noted, at a slower tempo; eg, one can sing semi-quavers at a moderate tempo AND be incisive. >
It would be easier to pick out all the instrumental lines that way, yes, but I think the overall effect would be compromised. We'd focus more on the notes than the mood.

I don't have my score with me this morning, but as I recall the meter is cut C (2/2) rather than C (4/4), isn't it? Two big pulses per bar, rather than four? At four pulses the music feels bogged down. (Yes, the Harnoncourt performance seems too slow to me.)

< How much faster is 'a couple of notches'? >
You said "Andante" -- how fast do you walk? :)

Pete Blue wrote (October 30, 2002):
[To Neil] I think that this judging and comparing of tempi of this single chorus of the SJP, a unified dramatic work, is misleading, for two possible reasons:

(1) Because it is out of context. In a self-consciously reverential approach with comparatively huge forces, like Karl Richter's on Archiv or Scherchen's (which I recently laid my hands on a copy of), ten-and-a-half minutes or so feels just right. In a period instrument, small-forces version like the Suzuki or the uniquely dramatic Paul Dombrecht/Il Fondamento (which only I in the Western Hemisphere seem to have had the joy of experiencing), nine minutes-and-change seems ideal. I do grant, though, that anything much faster than that seems excessive in ANY context.

(2) Because of the recording venue. Of the Suzuki and the Dombrecht, for example, the former's counterpoint is a mite smudged due to a lot of reverb in the (empty? big, anyway) church; in the dryer, more closely miked acoustic of the Dombrecht, everything was crystal-clear. Thus, in addition to conductorial concept, a reason why some find the faster recordings less gratifying may be the acoustics, or at least the engineering philosophy, of those recordings. I recall Anthony Newman being exceptionally brisk in the SJP opening chorus (live, not on his subsequent CD), but I recall a full house dried up the church, and the results were exciting but not driven or pumped-up at all.

Bradley Lehman wrote (October 31, 2002):
[To Pete Blue] Fair enough!

But I listened to the Slowik today. His is one of the "fastest" ones, bringing in this movement in 8'30", yet it feels leisurely! Why? Because it's so clearly in 2 rather than in 4, a slowish 2, and because the harmonic rhythm of the music is also at that level. The flow of the performance is so easygoing at that tempo.

That, I think, is more important than any metronome marking or timing taken cold.

The Alessandrini recording of Vivaldi's "Gloria" is like that, too. The opening movement seems unbelievably fast in the instruments, until it becomes clear that the words and the harmony really aren't moving very fast at all: the performance is felt in 2 rather than in 4. And then it makes so much sense that way that it's hard to imagine it otherwise. It illustrates the text beautifully.

Matthew Neugebauer wrote (October 31, 2002):
[To Neil] North American translation:

crochet=quarter note quaver=eighth note semiquaver=sixteenth note

I hope this is helpful-fractions are out of a whole note (surprise, surprise, but God help me if I know the European equivalent!)) which in common time (aka 4/4 time)gets 4 beats-hence in common time a quarter note/crotchet is one beat.

Neil wrote (November 1, 2002):
"I don't presume he expected it to be heard as polyphony. Isn't the polyphony simply his craftsmanship, a method of putting together the piece and keeping it going?"

I suppose this is true. But if you can get a few friends around an organ keyboard, and play this score slowly, you will be astounded by the complex intermingling of the parts - the discords and their resolution. I'm loathe to lose ALL of this in performance!

The metre is in fact 4/4, but I agree you can legitimately hear it as 2/2, by hearing the 2 pulses per bar from the double basses, as the foundation of the motion. I prefer to hear the 8 pulses per bar from the cellos/bassoons, strengthened by the double basses, as the foundation of the structure; in this latter case, a much slower tempo is possible.

Your list of timings certainly shows that tempo has little to do with HIP/non-HIP, although in a majority of cases, I suppose HIP is faster.

Thanks for your perspective of the proceedings from within the orchestra.

Neil wrote (November 1, 2002):
Thomas Radleff wrote:
< it´s only the first of your demands that is fulfilled by Scherchen´s SJP recording from 1961/62: it lasts 10´54´´. But the Vienna Academy Chorus, especially on this track, is terrible:... >
Yes, I've discovered that we modern instrument lovers can't necessarily rely on the big names from the past! I hope we get many more sound-bite samples from CD's over the internet, in the future.

< ...in Scherchen´s h-moll-Messe the bass spoils almost all of it) Evangelist: John van Kesteren Jesus: Otto Wiener. >

One wonders how a musician of the stature of Scherchen could have tolerated this - even if this operatic vocal style (in Bach) was fashionable at the time.

Bradley Lehman wrote (November 1, 2002):
Neil wrote:
"I don't presume he expected it to be heard as polyphony. Isn't the polyphony simply his craftsmanship, a method of putting together the piece and keeping it going?"
I suppose this is true. But if you can get a few friends around an organ keyboard, and play this score slowly, you will be astounded by the complex intermingling of the parts - the discords and their resolution. I'm loathe to lose ALL of this in performance! >
Bach certainly was a master of consonance, dissonance, and resolution, wasn't he?

Still, there's a formula to composing something like this: sketch out the basic harmonic progression, the skeleton, and then elaborate the upper parts with neighboring tones. The dissonance created by those non-harmonic tones is not really "polyphony" so much as decorated homophony, blocks of chords moving with typical patterns of part-writing (before the decoration). The motion of these small notes enlivens the texture, makes the chords vibrate. [Like in the Sanctus of the B Minor Mass, for another example.]

It makes an effect.

The effect might be the water impressions I mentioned a few days ago. Or, it might be a projection of general chaos at the beginning of the work: the world is in turmoil until snapped into focus by this story. (Like the message of the first chapter of John.) Or both. Or neither. I wouldn't be surprised if Bach had both of these, and more, in mind. Whatever, it seems to be some sort of turbulence, and maybe that's specific enough.

If you look at a Seurat painting and then step backward, the dots progressively dissolve into the bigger effect. The dots are sort of interesting in themselves, but the bigger picture is even more interesting: the presence of all those specks makes the whole thing vibrate as the perceiver puts it back together. On the other hand, if you step closer, the dots of a local area seem to be almost random, chaotic, meaningless. Isn't that what Bach is doing here, in music?

< The metre is in fact 4/4, but I agree you can legitimately hear it as 2/2, by hearing the 2 pulses per bar from the double basses, as the foundation of the motion. I prefer to hear the 8 pulses per bar from the cellos/bassoons, strengthened by the double basses, as the foundation of the structure; in this latter case, a much slower tempo is possible. >
True...but the harmonic motion is very slow that way....

< Your list of timings certainly shows that tempo has little to do with HIP/non-HIP, although in a majority of cases, I suppose HIP is faster. >
I suspect it has as much to do with the size of the hall as anything. In a bigger space (as with a large performing group) one can't go as fast.

< Thanks for your perspective of the proceedings from within the orchestra. >
Certainly!

Bradley Lehman wrote (November 1, 2002):
One other ancillary point here that wouldn't be obvious from looking at the score: all those non-harmonic tones swirling through the upper parts are crunching all the time against the improvised chords played by the continuo team! (Organ here, and perhaps also lutes, theorbo, and harpsichord in some performances.)

We continuo blokes are not sitting there worrying about lifting off every semiquaver when it might make a semitone clash against someone else. We are there to enhance the expression of the bass line and sketch out the broad harmonic outlines, giving everybody a reference. Sometimes we also add non-harmonic passing tones or rhythmic ideas of our own, also in the service of enlivening the texture. If things occasionally make a dissonance, so what? The dissonances are controlled to resolve in the right places (on the main beats), because the music is written well. The composer knows this, and writes the music that way. The things that happen within and between the beats could be anybody's game. That's what gives the music tension and forward motion.

Here in the opening movement of SJP, Bach is just doing more of the same. He's giving auxiliary tones to everybody, enlivening the whole texture, while the bass line holds everything together. Then in the B section, the bass line players also get to do the undulating figure for a while...an ornamented bass line!

Another thing not obvious in the score is that the hall itself will also do plenty of this harmonic blending, no matter how short the players play the notes. Some of the bass-line players are instructed to play their notes shorter than others because the hall will sustain it for them...lower bass notes typically resonate on their own longer than higher notes do. (That's another reason for generally disconnecting the continuo notes in recitatives, by the way: simple acoustics.)

It's a futile exercise to try to hear every note and rest exactly as notated on the page (along with the unwritten improvised notes!). Bach was a practical composer, and knew this. And he wasn't writing for the clinical analysis that might be possible listening to a closely-miked recording. He wrote his musical details so people in the room would get a point from the story.... (His listeners wouldn't be sitting there following along with scores, either. The expense!) If he wrote fantastic clashes among some of the quickly-moving parts, so be it...momentary dissonance is a spice, and in practice they're heard that way. The artfulness of this conceals itself.

Continue on Part 3