Herreweghe SJP: any opinions?

Ferenc Riesz wrote (November 22, 2001):
I joined only recently, quickly run through the contents but found no thread regarding this topic.

I saw Herreweghe's new SJP out in the shops. Has anybody heard it? Must be very good...

Kirk McElhearn wrote (November 22, 2001):
[To Ferenc Riesz] Not yet. I may buy it today, actually... I'll let you know.

Herreweghe's new SJP???????????

Ferenc Riesz wrote (December 5, 2001):
I simply cannot belive that no one has opinion on Herreweghe's new SJP recording...

Kirk? Piotr? Desperate Ferenc

Piotr Jaworski wrote (December 5, 2001):
[To Ferenc Riesz] Well, I'm also desperate - due to my recent acquisitions that caused dramatic situation within my budget-frame ... I could not simply pass by and miss such terrific recordings like:

JN Hummel Piano Concertos played by Stephen Hough
(Chandos)[Uuuu...great, great recording!!!];
Domenico Scarlatti Sonatas played by Mikhail Pletnev (Virgin);
two magic recordings of Carole Cerasi (all by Metronome);
mesmerising Konstantin Scherbakov at Schostakovich Preludes and Fugues (Naxos) ..

A huge truck loaded with all recent issues of HYPERION is also expected in Warsaw before X-mass .... therefore I decided to postone my opinion of Philippe Herreweghe recent SJP till at least January 2002!! ;-)

I'm sure that YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN! :-)

Jill Gunsell wrote (December 9, 2001):
[To Ferenc Riesz] Hello Desperate Ferenc!

I have it. I like it! But then I'm biased. I like everything by Herreweghe.

The first chorus is omitted, as is the last, this being the 1725 (2) version. The tempo is a bit of a surprise at first - fast. It begins with the chorale 'O Mensch', at quite a lick.

My overall impression on two or three hearings only, is of great commitment in Herreweghe's interpretation, very much in keeping with the highly dramatic atmosphere of the work as a whole. The tempo varies enormously throughout - very involving.

All the soloists are good. The instrumentalists are outstanding. This is the third version of the SJP in my collection in which Andreas Scholl (CT voice in general and Scholl in particular being special interests of mine) sings the two alto arias, and IMHO this is his best effort in these, to date. His voice ... still amazingly 'pure' and largely vibrato-free when it should be ... has lost much of its youthful 'whiteness' and now admirably suits the darkness in 'Es ist vollbracht', in particular. For me, (I don't know whether Bach intends it thus) this aria is the high point of the work/drama, and in this recording is very well done, providing a contemplative/dramatic pause of tremendous impact.

The recording quality overall is good, as you would expect, although the balance between oboe/bassoon and voice is not quite as good as it might be in some places, giving a slight feeling of contest rather than harmony.

The booklet notes by Thomas Seedorf, while fairly informative, are meagre. The importance of the work and of this conductor warrant a great deal more background information, and people whose first SJP this will be are short-changed. (I am finding Harmonia Mundi a little parsimonious in the notes department, recently.)

Highly recommended.

Piotr Jaworski wrote (December 11, 2001):
[To Jill Gunsell] Where would you place this recent Herreweghe SJP with ..., say: Suzuki and Gardiner? I'm just wondering how "highly" you recommend this recording and what exactly are it's 'comparatively measured qualities'? ;-)

(I also like almost everything by PhH, however I'm not sure if the next SJP is the best idea.)

Jill Gunsell wrote (December 12, 2001):
[To Piotr Jaworski] I have not heard the Suzuki, I regret to say. [ life is so short :-( ] I will get around to it. It is a while, too, since I heard the Gardin, to be honest. So I would not like to make a comparison.

As a matter of fact, I tend not to make such comparisons. Luckily for me, I do not have a good memory for detail (and I cannot possibly remember the details of everything in my collection though I wish I could, sometimes) so my hearing of a new recording is seldom coloured by the memory of an earlier one. Just as I can read a whodunit detective story after a while, and not remember who did it! I judge each recording I hear "on its own", so to say. This makes me a very bad critic, but gives me the advantage (purely for me, you understand) of a completely open mind, taking each performance as though it were the first ever. With all the enjoyment that implies.

However, is so happens that I did have to hand other SJPs with Scholl, so these I could compare by playing them immediately, but only the Scholl tracks -- I wanted to study how his voice had changed.

This is probably the most useless post ever on this list. Sorry!

Ferenc Riesz wrote (December 12, 2001):
Jill Gunsell wrote:
< I have it. I like it! But then I'm biased. I like everything by Herreweghe. >
I am biased too... :)

Thanks for your review. I have the earlier Herreweghe version and maybe I'll buy this one as well.

Piotr Jaworski wrote (December 12, 2001):
[To Jill Gunsell] So this is your THIRD SJP with Scholl - following that one with Corboz and so called "Dutch Version" for Channel Classics??? I have none of them ... :-( Therefore will be extremely interested in any comparative listening you will me able to make and subsequently post to the List.

My problem with Herreweghe is that he is not always at his best form. Leaving his other recordings (not-Bach) apart, making judgement on solely JSB only: his - PhH - oeuvre has really high 'ups' and quite low 'downs' - even if these 'downs' are some other conductors unreachable 'highs' ;-)

Another thing is exactly Andreas Scholl ..., I will have to admit that I rather tend to prefer in this (or similar) repertoire Masaaki Suzuki and Robert King 'discovery' - Robin Blaze. But definitely - the countertenor part is not the decisive factor for the acquisition of another SJP...

I'm not that much devoted to JSB, to have any possible interpretation, even if limited only to 'decent, interesting and good' interpretations. "Life is so short" indeed! Therefore I'd urge you to make a Christmas self-gift surprise with Suzuki version, while I will postpone my decision with latest PhH till more reviews and comments will be available.

Michael Grover wrote (December 12, 2002):
[To Jill Gunsell] Nope, that wasn't even close to the most useless post on the list. In fact, I found it to be a Really Useful Post. (Any fans of Thomas the Tank Engine out there?) Anyway, thanks for sharing your views.

Herreweghe 1725 SJP Query

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 1, 2002):
Ever since becoming aware the other day that we have a 2^nd recording of the Johannes-Passion 1725 revision, I have tried to access Aryeh's http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV245-Rec5.htm no. 62, but to no avail. Obviously this has been discussed and I presume that such discussion took place in the recordings group and not the cantatas group. I do not read the list(s) regularly, but can someone point me to comparative discussions of this recording and that of Peter Neumann? We are facing an embarrassment of riches. And the search engine of course does not allow the entry of sufficient data to generate easily the relevant messages.
Collegium Vocale, Philippe Herreweghe, cond.
SOLOISTS: Sibylla Rubens, Andreas Scholl, Mark Padmore, Sebastian Noack, Michael Volle

This is a NEW recording of the revised version of 1725. Herreweghe and crew revisit the work fourteen years after his acclaimed recording of the original version (HMC 901264/65). The success of Herreweghe's recent St. Matthew Passion (HMC 951676/78) should be repeated with this release. "This is unquestionably an impressive and stylish new account, one of almost unremitting panache... there is a luminous interdependence between voices and instruments."- Gramophone

JP (1725): a review

Riccardo Nughes wrote (March 1, 2002):
http://www.andante.com/magazine/article.cfm?id=16125

I've the Neumann recording (this is the main reason for the fact I haven't bought yet the Herreweghe set, even at special price): choir & orchestra are great, but the soloists are really poor, IMO.

Marten Breuer wrote (March 1, 2002):
[To Riccardo Nughes] Having read many reviews of the Neumann recording that were not very enthusiastic, I am really glad that I am not the only one to love this recording!

Herreweghe “live”

Bernard Nys wrote (April 21, 2003):
Last Thursday, 17/4/2003, I saw the SJP "live" by Philippe Herreweghe in Antwerp, with Sybilla Rubens, Ingeborg Danz, Jan Kobow, Christoph Prégardien, Sebastian Noack, Thomas Brauer, a 100% German cast. I don't want to be patriotic, but I really think he's the very best. Best choir, best orchestra (with Marcel Ponseele, oboe), best soloists. Stunning live performance, as perfect as his CD recording.

BWV 245, Version II - Herreweghe

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (February 27, 2005):
I had just received a copy I had purchased of Herreweghe's recording of the Johannespassion, Version II, and must admit that I find it very good, even if the conductor and chief vocal performers (I don't know what nationality the vocal soloists are) are Belgian, not German. I even find it better than the Neumann and Cleobury recordings (which do not go according to the score, but rather use the versions of the main movements from the 1739/1749 reworking, with the movements that were used in the 1725 version added on to them), even if I have major problems with their Continuo realizations (they do not keep the tied notes, they do not use Harpsichord, they do not play the Continuo in many sections [even though the score says to play it]).

Also a question:

At the same time, I purchased (it has not been delivered to my door yet) a copy of the second recording of the Johannespassion by Peter Schreier (the one touted on the Bach Cantatas Website as being a recording of the 1724 version). What are your thoughts on it, and how do you think it compares to the recently released van Veldhoven recording?

Herreweghe - St. John Passion Performance - Lincoln Center, Easter Sunday

BWV846-893 wrote (March 23, 2007):
Does any one know if Herreweghe is planning a new recording of SJP?

From the HM USA website:

PHILIPPE HERREWEGHE BRINGS BACH TO LINCOLN CENTER

Philippe Herreweghe directs the Orchestra and Choir of Collegium Vocale Gent in a very special Easter Sunday Performance of the St. John Passion.

Belgian conductor Philippe Herreweghe, who boasts a magnificent discography on harmonia mundi, is currently bringing the St. John Passion with the Orchestra and Choir of Collegium Vocale Gent on tour across Europe in cities from Antwerp to Zagreb. Herreweghe brings the "Passion" to New York's Lincoln Center for its final performance on Easter Sunday at Alice Tully Hall. The stellar cast includes lyric tenor Christoph Prégardien as the evangelist, baritone Konrad Jarnot, Swedish soprano Camilla Tilling, Ingeborg Danz, Jan Kobow and the eloquent bass, Peter Kooij.

"Herreweghe has a special gift for Bach, regularly turning in powerfully dramatic performances that don't sacrifice intellectual rigor." - The New Yorker

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (March 23, 2007):
I will attend it in Brussels on next Sunday: http://www.bozar.be/activity.php?id=6247
If I can get information I will tell the list.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (March 25, 2007):
Herreweghe SJP in Brussels

Beautiful performance of the SJP conducted by Herreweghe this afternoon in the Bozar concert hall in Brussels.

A special mention for Christoph Prégardien as the Evangelist, who was fantastic and deserved the enthusiast applause he received.

The Collegium Vocale choir was perfect, precise, balanced and lively. The intrumentists were also very good.

Only regret, the voice of some of the soloists (especially of the alto, Ingeborg Danz) did not come out well over the instruments in some of the arias. The acoustics of the concert hall is generally considered as excellent but might be tricky in some cases...

Unfortunately no hint of a new recording. Only thing sure, there was no recording during the concert (the previous Herreweghe concert, Brahms and Bruckner, was obviously recorded, with microphones all around).

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 25, 2007):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< Only regret, the voice of some of the soloists (especially of the alto, Ingeborg Danz) did not come out well over the instruments in some of the arias. The acoustics of the concert hall is generally considered as excellent but might be tricky in some cases...
Unfortunately no hint of a new recording. Only thing sure, there was no recording during the concert (the previous Herreweghe concert, Brahms and Bruckner, was obviously recorded, with microphones all around). >
I am glad you enjoyed the performance which you attended and I understand that the choir, instrumentalists and the evangelist all impressed you.

However, if I may, I have two comments or questions:

(1) There are already two recordings of this very recorded work by Herreweghe. The 2^nd one is of the operatic 1725 version (the 2^nd version). It was generally compared unfavorably to Peter Neumann's recording of the 2^nd version and, at the time we discussed them here, I opted for Neumann's. Thus I cannot comment on Herreweghe's.

(2) Your one regret would totally destroy any Johannes-Passion performance for me. The two alto arias are the center of this work for me (I did not say the only thing in this work). Thus I really wonder why a 3^rd recording by Herreweghe would have much of a market or most any further recording of such an over-recorded but not that often performed work.

I am looking forward to the Harnoncourt DVD of this work. It has something unique in its impressive two boy altos and its boy soprano soloists. A recording in my opinion of such an over-recorded work needs to have something very special.

Thank you for telling us about the performance.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (March 26, 2007):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] Thanks for your comment.

What I said applied mostly to the first alto aria. The second one "Es is vollbracht" came out better and was indeed moving. But having looked and listened to the video with Panito Iconomou (thanks to this discussion group), I could not help but compare...

I like Peter Kooij, but this time the soloist I preferred (besides Prégardien of course) was the soprano Camilla Tilling.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (March 27, 2007):
[To Thérèse Hanquet] In the last performance of the JP which I attended, the second alto aria was simply inadequate whilst the first was very good but they were two different singers. At all events it is always good to hear about someone else's experience with a live performance, something we rarely get here.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (March 27, 2007):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] I just learned yesterday that one of the soprani of the Collegium Vocale choir is the wife of our actual Prime Minister.

For this concert as well as for the previous one with the Collegium Vocale (http://www.bozar.be/activity.php?id=6245&lng=en), there were four singers in each voice, and the balance was perfect. This time for the alti there were two men and two women, and as far as I remember for the the previous concert it was one man and three women.

Philippe Herreweghe: Short Biography | Ensembles: La Chapelle Royale | Collegium Vocale Gent
Bach Discography: Recordings of Vocal Works: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3
General Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3
Cantatas: Cantatas BWV 29, 119 & 120 - P. Herreweghe | Christmas Cantatas from Leipzig - P. Herreweghe | Weinen Klagen.. Cantata BWV 12, 38 & 75 - P. Herreweghe
Other Vocal Works: BWV 232 - P. Herreweghe | BWV 244 - P. Herreweghe | BWV 245 - P. Herreweghe | BWV 248 - P. Herreweghe
Table of recordings by BWV Number